Qur’aan, Surah Hijr 15:26-30

Apparently the verses from 15:24-30 were mistranslated to suit one group over the other as the note below indicates. I will add a note after hearing from Mr. Dhaliwal.

thank God, no one had dared to make a change in the Arabic version of Qur’an since its inception, however there have been three mistranslations, two of which I am familiar with, one was paid to mistranslate in 1142 AD by the European Kings around the crusades times to have the Christians hate Muslims; the other one was by Hilali Khan in 1922 after the fall of Ottoman Empire to rally up Muslim support by creating enemies out of Jews and Christians. I am not familiar with the third one, apparently during King Aurangzeb’s time. Aurangzeb was an honest man, but was an intolerant fanatic towards Hindus and apparently Sikhs.

Qur’an, like all other holy books is a book of guidance for humanity to co-exist in harmony and peace, the religious scriptures are God’s love for his creation. Just as the Nuclear power in the hands of good men and women can be beneficent to humanity and destructive in the wrong hands, the holy books are the same. Neither Qur’an, nor Nuclear powers are bad, it is whose hands in it is that determine the outcome. Fortunately, the intolerants ones are less than 1/10th of 1% of the population.

The best way to understand a verse is to read five verses before and after, and read at least three translations to get the right meaning. Finding the truth is one’s own responsibility.
To prevent mis-posting of this essay, I have posted the original at:

Mike Ghouse
http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/
http://www.worldmuslimcongress.com/
http://www.worldmuslimcongress.org/
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15:24 (Asad) and well do We know [the hearts and deeds of all human beings - both] those who lived before you and those who will come after you; (Or: "those of you who hasten forward [towards Us], and those who lag behind". Both these interpretations are considered equally legitimate by the early commentators)
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15:25 (Asad) and, behold, it is thy Sustainer who will gather them all together [on Judgment Day]: verily, He is wise, all-knowing! -
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15:26 (Asad) AND, INDEED, We have created man out of sounding clay, out of dark-slime transmuted -

There are many references in the Qur'an to man's having been "created out of clay (tin)" or "out of dust (turab)", both these terms signifying man's lowly biological origins as well as the fact that his body is composed of various organic and inorganic substances existing-in other combinations or in their elementary forms-on or in the earth. The term salsal, occurring in three verses of this surah as well as in 55:14, adds a further dimension to this concept. According to most of the philological authorities, it denotes "dried clay that emits a sound" (i.e., when it is struck); and since it is used in the Qur'an exclusively with reference to the creation of man, it seems to contain an allusion to the power of articulate speech which distinguishes man from all other animal species, as well as to the brittleness of his existence (cf. the expression "like pottery" in 55:14). As the construction of the sentence shows, this salsal is stated to have evolved (Razi) out of hama' - which, according to some authorities, is the plural of ham'ah, signifying "dark, fetid mud" or "dark slime"-while the participial adjective masnun which qualifies this noun denotes, as Razi points out, both "altered" (i.e., in its composition) and "brought into shape": hence my rendering of this expression as "transmuted", which to some extent combines both of the above meanings. To my mind, we have here a description of the primeval biological environment out of which the "sounding clay" - the matrix, as it were - of man's physical body has evolved in accordance with God's plan of creation.(Quran Ref: 15:26 )
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15:27 (Asad) whereas the invisible beings We had created, [long] before that, out of the fire of scorching winds

"out of the confusing flame of fire (marij min nar)": i.e., of non-corporeal elements. The noun al-jann, rendered by me as "the invisible beings", is in reality a singular, denoting here the kind of these particular beings or forces, similar to the use of the singular noun "man" (al-insan) which describes the collective entity "mankind".

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15:28 (Asad) And lo! Thy Sustainer said unto the angels: "Behold, I am about to create mortal man out of sounding clay, out of dark slime transmuted; -
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15:29 (Asad) and when I have formed him fully and breathed into him of My spirit, fall down before him in prostration!

The allegorical character of all the passages bearing on the creation of man and on God's command to the angels to prostrate themselves before him is brought out clearly in God's saying, "I am about to create mortal man ... ; and when I have formed him fully. ..", etc.: for it is obvious that, in reality, no lapse of time is required for God's completing His creation - since, "when He wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, 'Be'-and it is" (cf. 2:117, 3:47 and 59, 6:73, 16:40, 19:35, 36:82 and 40:68). God's "breathing of His spirit" into man is obviously a metaphor for His endowing him with life and consciousness: that is, with a soul.(Quran Ref: 15:29 )
Mike Ghouse comments: there are several references where God tells the angels to bow to the man he has just created. In essence, God is asking to look up to man who is not an automatic machine to be in peace and free from conflicts, but has the free will and will strive to achieve peace, a state of conflict free, guilt free life.
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15:30 (Asad) Thereupon the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together, -
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15:31 (Asad) save Iblis: he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves. [27] -
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15:32 (Asad) Said He: "O Iblis! What is thy reason for not being among those who have prostrated themselves?" -
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15:33 (Asad) [Iblis] replied: "It is not for me to prostrate myself before mortal man whom Thou hast created out of sounding clay, out of dark slime transmuted!"

Mike’s comments: This signifies lack of trust in God by Iblis (Shaitaan) and arrogance to bow in front of a thinking and independent creature.
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15:34 (Asad) Said He: "Go forth, then, from this [angelic state]: for, behold, thou art [henceforth] accursed.

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Avtar Dhaliwal to me July 27, 2010

Dear Mike,
Greetings. I hope by now you are well recovered from the exhausting Parliament meeting in Melbourne, Australia.

I am working on my article on Sacred Scriptures and its Intended use—misinterpretations.
Apparently, during my presentation, I did not apply the qualified translation which resulted in misunderstanding By our friend from Bombay. I apologize for not gathering my information correctly. I had applied the translation that was posted on the Internet by ‘Quran Explorer.com’. I have no intension of denigrating any sacred books.

You had mentioned that correct translation is available for Surah 15:26-30.

However, a Sabd by Guru Nanak Ji had been misinterpreted by the Clerks in the court of Aurangzeb, and the same interpretation has been copied in Sikh literature for the last 350 years.
I am trying to get the correct explication of the misinterpreted Sabd in Sikhism. In reference to that I need Correct translation of Surah 15:26-30.

Will you please, send the correct translation in the English language as well as in the Urdu language.
Thanks for time.
Wishing the best.
Avtar S. Dhaliwal
Tennessee, USA

Quraan Misunderstood 60:4 and 5:33

Every day, someone or the other jumps up claiming Quraan has hateful verses. I realize "hate" and "lies" sell and bring serious monies to some of these men and women. Of course, most of them are genuinely mistaken quoting the quote without having the urge to search for the veracity of such quotes dished out to them.

At one time, I beleived in those misquotes and had turned myself away from religion for nearly 30 years, until I realize that even if my Imam, Pastor, Rabbi or Pundit tells me one thing, truth is my own salvation. Now, I have developed an unflinchable confidence that God, no matter what book it is; Torah, Bible, Gita, Quraan Avesta or others... communicates about justice and balance in the society.

Geert Wilders wrote a piece why he hates Islam, as he has done twice before with the movie Fitna and quoting verses that were not there in Quraan, but shamelessly many a American dumb gullible Senators believed him, without even trying to find the truth. I responded to him in detail, he did not care - like Mr. Bush with WMD's, he know it was a lie, but he still went out on destructive rampage.

My response to Geert Wilders Message to Muslims Mike Ghouse 20 Jul 2010 was picked by Faith freedom group, another group bent on falsifying or genuinely don't care about the truth.

Here is their claim and my response.

The Faithfreedom http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&p=118556 writes the following verses from Qur’an in my responses to Geert Wilders at http://www.muslimsdebate.com/faces/sn.php?nid=644

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Faithfreedom quotes and writes;

Koran 60:4
There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides God: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever, - unless ye believe in God and Him alone": But not when Abraham said to his father: "I will pray for forgiveness for thee, though I have no power (to get) aught on thy behalf from God." (They prayed): "Our Lord! In Thee do we trust, and to Thee do we turn in repentance: to Thee is (our) Final Goal.

Koran 60:4 sets out the Islamic position of hatred and enmity towards those who do not accept Allah and Muhammad.

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Mike Ghouse quotes the verse from Qur’aan

Qur’aan, 60:4 (Asad) Indeed, you have had a good example in Abraham and those who followed him, when they said unto their [idolatrous] people: "Verily, we are quit of you and of all that you worship instead of God: we deny the truth of whatever you believe; and between us and you there has arisen enmity and hatred, to last until such a time as you come to believe in the One God!" The only exception was Abraham's saying to his father "I shall indeed pray for [God's] forgiveness for thee, although I have it not in my power to obtain anything from God in thy behalf." [And Abraham and his followers prayed:] "O our Sustainer! In Thee have we placed our trust, and unto Thee do we turn: for unto Thee is all journeys' end.

This narration is about Abraham‘s experience, and not about Allah or Muhammad. However, we have to continue to understand the wisdom of the holy books of all religions. Religion was about peace making and not otherwise.

One God is referred to as oneness of creation, oneness of the universe and one family with diverse members in it. The idea is not the opposition of idolatry, but the opposition of enmity that is bred by individual Gods who are an extension of one’s ego and a sources of conflict. It was the idea of an abstract God that mitigated the conflicts among the warring tribes during Abraham and continued till this day. Even if there were a million Gods, from a humanistic point of view, one of them ends up ruling the others to have harmony among them.

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The Faith freedom writes;

Koran 5:33
The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.

`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.

Does Mike Ghouse support the "recompense" of those who oppose the theology of Islam?

Would he like to explain just these two verses out of the many that he would need to either support or reject?

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Mike Ghouse

The recompense referred to here is “against those who wage war”. Every nation follows that policy, indeed, when Osama Bin Laden waged war against us, we attempted to recompense that evil man for waging the war, and we still trying to do that. Although we are destroying others thoughtlessly instead of getting the evil man and hang him, if he were caught in Texas, we will electrocute him.

Indeed, the Qur’an adds, if the aggressors stop the aggression, do not go after them. Is there any nation on this earth, or an individual who would not stop the aggressor?

Wife beating - Qur'aan 4:34

This thing keeps popping up every few months and I am happy to reveiw and share another point of view. Finding the truth is your own responsibility.

Cultures determine one's behavior rather than the religion, indeed, religions are the product of environment; God says in Bhagvad Gita, "whenever unrighteousness takes over the society, I will emerge among you and reset the society to righteousness" and the Qur'aan, " to every nation, and to every tribe, there will be a messenger to put them back on the path of righteousness" and that's precisely what Jesus and Moses did; bring a sense of morality to the deviousness that preceeded them.

Religion is about justice, inclusiveness and common goodness.

Basam writes in his research paper, “A common criticism exists that Islam is an androcentric religion that authorizes the oppression of women both in public and private spheres. Wife beating is often cited to support this claim.”

Thanks to the variations in translations, it shows us the limitations of human understanding, and challenges us to strive to grasp the whole truth. What was hitherto cut and dry is no more. May be it is Allah's hint to us to get closer to understanding the truth. The monopolies would be gone and focus would be on the essence rather than literal meaning. Presently the 14 translations are available and Insha Allah it will be at http://www.worldmuslimcongress.com/ soon.
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Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar offers another meaning to the translation of the Arabic word "Idrib," traditionally translated as "beat," which has been mis-understood and abused over the centuries by men who would be abusive any way, whether they are Muslim or not. "Why choose to interpret the word as 'to beat' when it can also mean 'to go away' - either one from the other, may be it meant separation as a process of re-evaluation.

The passage is generally translated: "And as for those women whose ill will you have reason to fear, admonish them; then leave them alone in bed; then beat them; and if thereupon they pay you heed, do not seek to harm them. Behold, God is indeed most high, great!"
Instead, Bakhtiar suggests "Husbands at that point should submit to God, let God handle it -- go away from them and let God work His Will instead of a human being inflicting pain and suffering on another human being in the Name of God."

Insha Allah, I am working on presenting a paper on the myth of "wife beating" to our scholars and Imams to review, and if it is consistent with the essence of Qur'aan and if they concur, it will be a relief to the Muslim women around the world consistent with God being a just God.
I am optimistic with this particular development and welcome this new translation, even if it has a few flaws, it would wash off by the 15 other translations, but will take us closer to the essence of Qur'aan; Justice to one and all.

Continue: http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2007/03/woman-re-interprets-quraan.html

Jazak Allah Khair
Mike Ghouse

Introduction (Bassam and Syed)

A common criticism exists that Islam is an androcentric religion that authorizes the oppression of women both in public and private spheres. Wife beating is often cited to support this claim. The perception that Islam permits a husband to beat his wife resides with some non-Muslims and Muslims alike. Acknowledging this perception, we explore in this paper the Islamic legal perspective on wife beating specifically and wife discipline in general.The primary source of legislation on wife discipline in Islamic law is verse 34 of the fourth chapter of the Qur’an entitled “the Women.” The verse presents the disciplinary scheme in the latter sentence of the verse—hereafter referred to as the “Discipline Passage.” The verse in whole reads: (Husbands) are the protectors and maintainers of their (wives) because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to the women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) spank them (lightly), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means of (annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).

Continue: http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2008/01/wife-beating-434.html

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Abed and Ahmad, law students at Michigan State University, dispute the suggestion that wife beating is an accepted doctrine of Islam, although they posit a notion of permissible, rightly motivated, non-abusive physical discipline as a means of restoring proper marriage relations. It is a very difficult concept for us Westerners to accept.

Continue: http://worldmuslimcongress.blogspot.com/2008/01/wife-beating-morale-434.html

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Muslim Response to Lies about Qur'aan

Muslim response to Dutch Legislator's lies about Qur'aan

The link following this note is a Muslim response to Geert Wilders documentary called "Fitna", presenting Islam as a dangerous to his society. The article is authored by Mike Ghouse* and Imam Zia Shaikh, Imam of the largest Mosque in Texas.

Mr. Wilders, a Dutch parliamentarian is in Washington DC to dupe a few of our congressmen and Senators. I do hope they will have their staff verify the statements he has quoted in the documentary (the link is provided below) and then check it in the Qur'aan and tell the man to come up with truths.

Evil persists because, we the good people do not stop the hate mongering and some of us even fund such documentaries. I have seen a series of such documentaries this year where a group is deliberately misrepresented with the sole purpose of frightening the insecure and cashing it in. It is all about money, they are fooling you and several of us. There was the “obsession documentary” fraught with misquotes and lies, some 2 million copies were shipped to frighten the Americans to vote the other way prior to November 4th elections. There are a few more documentaries that were shown with blatant lies, one of them was downright stupid but to the producer it had its effect, drill fear and gain favors, in that, a Non-Muslim French Professor on Islam was saying the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I challenged the producer to pick up the phone and call any Muslim any where in the world to find it if Muslim don’t believe in the coming of Messiah.

We have a choice to know the truth, and I urge those who truly want peace and co-existence to invite a few members of the community or set up a panel of liberals, conservative and a whole bunch of moderates to answer the audience. Private showings to exclusive groups has an intent of evilness, if it is the truth, let it be in the open, let it be subject to questions and another point of view.

Ultimately it is not the Imam, Rabbi, Pastor, Pundit, politician, savior, policy maker or the clergy who is responsible for our pain, pangs of conscience, our actions and bad intent; it is us who have to deal with in our lonely moments. We need to have true freedom to find the truth on our own.

Should we fund fear mongering or peace making? The choice is ours. I hope to wake you up and have you fund those who are working on mitigating conflicts and nurturing goodwill.

Mr. Wilders has read my piece linked below and is un-willing to retract the false statements he has made; he quoted them as if they are in Qur'aan, and they are not. His intent is not education but chaos. Wikipedia has made similar mistakes and even the prestigious University of Southern California's website has a quote ascribed to Qur'aan, even with a verse number to give the idea that it is legitimate, but that verse is not in Qur'aan either. Of course, only 1/10th of 1% of the extremists blindly believes in such statements without verifying.

Full article at: http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/2008/03/wilders-fitna-and-muslims_30.html

Mike Ghouse is a Dallas based writer, blogger, speaker and a thinker. A frequent guest on talk radio and local television networks offering pluralistic perspectives on issues of the day. His comments, news analysis and columns can be found on the Websites and Blogs listed at his personal website http://www.mikeghouse.net/

Does Qur'aan incite Violence - II

Response to Mr. MA Khan’s article:

Does the Qur’aan Incite Violence? A Debate with Mike Ghouse, Part 2

Mike Ghouse

The question is not whose side you’re on, and there is no need to take any side. The question is rather, what you present as the verse from Qur’aan is verifiable or not? So far it has not been.

The verses presented so far have been misquotes from Qur'aan, they are not there as presented. The problem is not the words in the holy books, the problem is mangling it and presenting it as a quote from the book. I have dealt with such challenges in Part 1, link to which is listed at the bottom of this essay.

Mr. Khan mis-interprets me, “Thereafter, Muslim rulers (as pious as the Saudis, who are main sponsors of translations of the Quran) also embarked on the same mission to mistranslate the Quran, obviously to harm Islam and Muslims, as Ghouse would have it. "The Kings on the Arabian lands had to fool their people too to get their support", as he puts it.

I have decided to stick to the subject, “Does Qur’aan incite violence? Mr. Khan’s stand is it does, and I do not see that way – Religion, yes, and every religion allays fears of the unknown, mitigates the apprehensions, gives hopes and brings a balance to an individual and what surrounds him; people and the environment.

It is my choice not to respond to the first eight paragraphs as they are about me, rather than the subject matter.

Here we go again, with a few more verses that are mis-quoted: I have quoted the entire paragraphs from Mr. Khan’s articles and they are sandwiched between the dotted lines.

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I must point out another great argument of this sagacious Islamic scholar, Mike Ghouse. The University of Southern California says:

There were about 360 idols around the Ka`abah. He pulled them down with his sword while reciting: "And say: 'Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.'" (Al-Qur'an, 17:81) Also "Say: 'Truth has arrived and falsehood neither creates anything new nor restores anything.'" (Al-Qur'an, 34: 49) The idols tumbled on their faces.

On the basis of such info, Wikipedia notes that:

In 630, Muhammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conqueror, and he destroyed the 360 idols in and around the Kaaba.<28]<29] href="http://www.foundationforpluralism.com/WorldMuslimCongress/Articles/Kaaba-and-the-wikipedia-blunder.asp">http://www.foundationforpluralism.com/WorldMuslimCongress/Articles/Kaaba-and-the-wikipedia-blunder.asp

It is time for the Neocons to stop chasing their own tails aka going on a circular logic. Please push the refresh button; this is the game they are playing since 10th century, with intent of maligning another people or faith. Of course, there is money in it for authors such as the one on Front page magazine and others. I wish Mr. Khan spends his energy in trying to go to original source; the Qur’aan, rather than quote the recycled quotes from over ten centuries.

Mr. Khan writes "Therefore, the claim of the original author that "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals" is roughly right, although he would been accurate had he said "kafirs [Hindus] are worse than animals (cattle)". That's what Asad affirms and Ghouse agrees."

The above statement is intended to frighten the Hindus, and normally it is an item to gain support from the extreme element and cash in on selling hate – the word “Hindu” is inserted in the quote above with mal-intent, it is neither in the Qur’aan nor in the translation by Asad, nor have I affirmed it. It is wrong to misquote me right here in these discussions.

I see the viciousness intensified in this statement of Mr. Khan, “This horrible cycle of punishment—that a Hindu, Christian or Jew deserves—would continue for eternity; so vile a people are they. No doubt, Allah’s psychopathic punishment would surpass the barbarity of Hitler by infinite folds.”

The following sentence lacks knowledge of any understanding of Qur’aan “We (Allah, there are few Allahs it seems) shall, in time, cause to endure fire:”. Mr. Khan knows that the word “we” is “I” used when the sentence is framed as God speaking.

I am debating at this point, should I continue this debate or not? I don’t run from things; let me face a few more paragraphs.

The following statement has no relevance for me “But this death in Jihad battles, called martyrdom, is no loss for Muslims; instead, it the greatest, the most desirable, thing ever can happen to a Muslim; because, this martyrdom gives him a ticket for straight landing in Allah’s paradise. Getting a ticket to paradise, believe Muslims, is the central aim of their every action in this world.”

What you fight for and die for may make sense or may not. Dying for the country, dying defending our democracy, dying to safeguard our freedom, dying for motherland… and dying for justice… are all glorified in India as well as America or any country.

Dying in Vietnam and dying in WWII or dying in Iraq… and Muslims dying to defend their freedom, fighting against oppression are all glorified. However, Islam does not allow any Muslim to kill others; you can fight only against a war on you. Many a presidents in behalf of their nation (without authorization of the people) have butchered other people and destroyed other nations. Many a Muslim Kings have done the same. In neither case it is the religion, it is the greed of the people in play. If they follow their religion and their scriptures, they won’t kill any one.

The language in the above quote (two paragraphs above) is geared to pitch the world against Muslims, and when you do that, you are guaranteed to have the Neocons (extremists in every faith) touting it and funding it. I believe, the moderate majority, the bulk of the population does not buy it.

I am surprised the editor of Desi Critic over looked this statement of Mr. Khan, “Let me emphasize to the reader that engaging with ignorant or deceivers like Ghouse takes us to no meaningful enlightenment on the subject. Therefore, I may wish to conclude this debate here, unless Ghouse comes forward with some solid, well-researched, arguments that deserve a response.”

Mr. Khan, no more rhetoric, or re-cycled quotes, please give me the originals from Qur’aan that is verifiable from the Qur’aan and debate with me without the first eight paragraphs. And please don’t run. I am here to defend the goodness of religion, every religion from the Neocon attacks. Every religion is beautiful, and it is our understanding that is short fused not God’s word.

Mike Ghouse is a Speaker, Thinker and a Writer. He is a frequent guest on talk radio and local television network discussing Pluralism, interfaith, Islam, India, Multiculturism, Terrorism, Peace, Politics and Civic issues. He co-chairs the center for interfaith inquiry of the Memnosyne Foundation, and presides the Foundation for Pluralism a He is the president of World Muslim Congress a think tank with a simple theme: Good for Muslims and good for the world and vice-Versa. His comments, news analysis and columns can be found on the Websites and Blogs listed at his personal website http://www.mikeghouse.net/ Mike is a Dallasite for nearly three decades and Carrollton is his home town. Mike's Profile, he is a Neighborhood Commissioner at the City of Carrollton, and a Board Member of Dallas Peace Center and has initiated the annual events like Thanksgiving, Unity Day USA, Holocaust and other events. He was Past President of Indian Creek HOA and North Texas Cricket Association and has been a member of several Boards.

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Quran Incite Violence? A Debate with Mike Ghouse, Part 2
February 18, 2009

MA KHAN

http://desicritics.org/2009/02/18/125923.php

I am responding below to Mike Ghouse’s reply to Part1 in this debate. I regret that I wasn’t able to respond with immediacy.

Let me start by addressing Ghouse’s favorite argument regarding the Quran, which I encountered in his emails and postings in Websites quite a few times. He frequently says that, in the colonial era or before, the Westerners intentionally mistranslated the Quran to harm Islam. “The Quran was mistranslated three times (by Europeans)”, he asserts. Thereafter, Muslim rulers (as pious as the Saudis, who are main sponsors of translations of the Quran) also embarked on the same mission to mistranslate the Quran, obviously to harm Islam and Muslims, as Ghouse would have it. “The Kings on the Arabian lands had to fool their people too to get their support”, as he puts it.

To him, these translators distorted the Quran so badly that, by reading it, Muslims are becoming terrorists all over the world in the name of Islam—the religion of pristine peace and tranquility. Let me first ask Ghouse a few questions:

1. First, what is his scholarship, expertise in Arabic, to judge translations of the Quran of most famous scholars like Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Dr. Muhshin Khan et al.? May I ask, if Ghouse, probably an India-born student of business/commercial studies, is fluent in Arabic or understand Arabic at all?

2. Secondly, would Ghouse sit in Saudi Arabia and dare distorting the Quran intentionally. I can assure Ghouse that the kind of “gross distortion” he accuses other famous translators with, if he does the same level of distortion of whatever kind sitting in Saudi Arabia, he would not last a day. Well, Ghouse may even give a try of the same at Islamabad, Khartoum, Cairo or Kabul. His is unlikely to last much longer, if at all. Let me inform readers that Muhshin Khan and his co-translator, Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, taught at the Islamic University of Medina, the city of Muhammad, where Islam was born. Abdullah Yusuf Ali, another brilliant translator, was sponsored by the Saudis.

3. Thirdly, Ghouse has found a good translator in Muhammad Asad (d. 1990), an Austro-Hungarian Jew, who converted to Islam and later ended up in India, where, in the company of fanatic Allama Iqbal, became a scholar of Islam. “Go to Mohammad Asad’s translation of Quran, it is one of the most accepted translations”, he asserts. In fact, Asad’s translation is not correct enough for Ghouse, as he says: “If I live longer, Insha Allah, God willing, I will do the translation to reflect the intent of the Quran”.

Although Asad’s credentials in Arabic were undoubtedly good, he had no real training in Arabic at its crown centres of Baghdad, Cairo, Saudi Arabia, which scholars like Muhshin Khan and Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali had. Moreover, born in a Jewish Rabbi family and well-acquainted with developments of the 20th-century Europe, I leave it to readers to reflect on how his background could have influenced his English rendering of the Quran and on Ghouse’s wisdom of picking Asad as a more reliable translator.

4. Fourthly, does Ghouse want to tell us that all the Imams, Muslim clerics—from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and elsewhere in the Muslim world—who keep spewing hatred on Quranic justification, read the Quran in English translations? Do Arabs like Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri, late al-Zarqawi and all those Islamic terrorists read the Quran in Arabic? Ghouse would obviously have us believe so.

I must point out another great argument of this sagacious Islamic scholar, Mike Ghouse. The University of Southern California says:

There were about 360 idols around the Ka`abah. He pulled them down with his sword while reciting: “And say: ‘Truth has arrived and falsehood has perished for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish.’” (Al-Qur’an, 17:81) Also “Say: ‘Truth has arrived and falsehood neither creates anything new nor restores anything.’” (Al-Qur’an, 34: 49) The idols tumbled on their faces.
On the basis of such info, Wikipedia notes that:

In 630, Muhammad and his followers returned to Mecca as conqueror, and he destroyed the 360 idols in and around the Kaaba.<28]<29]>

But to Ghouse, this information is all false. That means leading Islamic organizations in American, like CAIR and MSA, are out to harm Islam and Muslims, too. It is false even when most of the greatest classical scholars of Islam say so. Ibn Ishaq

But to Ghouse, those greatest scholars were ignorant or were out to harm Islam and Muslims. So, where lies truth? Who knows the truth? It is Michel Wolfe, a non-Muslim filmmaker of our time and the producer of the film “The Message”. When Ghouse asked Wolfe, the latter replied, as Ghouse puts it: “From his (Wolfe’s) understanding the idols were ‘removed’”, not destroyed, the latter remark being “blatantly misleading”.

Allah or Muhammad probably paid a visit to Wolfe lately to furnish him with the correct information. He has no other way to discover this truth. I wonder how Ghouse’s wisdom failed to ask Wolfe as to how he discovered the truth.

Nonetheless, the moral of the story is: You can take over a temple and remove there idols therein, not destroy them. Idolaters of the world can this message of Ghouse home.

Now let me turn to the Quranic verses Ghouse has addressed. I will not respond to his comments on other religious scriptures, because my expertise doesn’t lie there. I have spent the last 5-6 years researching Islam extensively, on which I am confident of commenting. If other scriptures have violent content, they incite violence too.

In explanation of verse 7:179, despite whatever unnecessary things he has written, Asad’s translation still says that the Kafirs, such as Hindus, “are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way”. That means a non-Muslim, heedless to Allah’s messages, is worse, more evil, than animals like cattle, which the original author put as: they are “like brute beast.” I need someone explain what’s the difference between the two. "Therefore, the claim of the original author that "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals" is roughly right, although he would been accurate had he said "kafirs [Hindus] are worse than animals (cattle)". That's what Asad affirms and Ghouse agrees."

Why not Ghouse give a fitting treatment to his non-Muslim neighbor deserving of animals like cattle, nay, worse than cattle as Asad puts it. I grew up in the countryside, we raised cattle. Worse than cattle around us were foxes that grabbed our chickens or spoiled sugarcane plantations. We used to kill them at the first opportunity. Tigers, hyenas, wolves are worse than cattle, too. What treatment would Muslims render, if they happen to come across animals like these in their neighborhood? Heads of the kafirs should roll.

Concerning my quoted verse 4:56, Asad’s translation basically say the same thing: For those rejecting Islam, “We (Allah, there are few Allahs it seems) shall, in time, cause to endure fire:

This horrible cycle of punishment—that a Hindu, Christian or Jew deserves—would continue for eternity; so vile a people are they. No doubt, Allah’s psychopathic punishment would surpass the barbarity of Hitler by infinite folds. Again, the original author is accurate in emphasizing that Allah has intense hatred of non-Muslims.

I will now touch upon three verses that Ghouse did not address. First verse 3:56:
The question of how Allah will punish the kafirs in this world? Not by Himself but through the hands of his followers, aka Muslims. Muslims must engage the vile unbelievers in Jihadi wars and inflict grievous punishment on them; and those, who perish in the process, will receive Allah’s succor in paradise (loaded with eternal virgins of immaculate beauty) as says the Quran
Next verse 8:13:

The message is crystal-clear here. This means, Muslims must endeavor to take hold of those vile unbelievers, who oppose Allah and Muhammad mission (i.e., reject Islam) and “cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers.” Allah’s clear words are enough; nothing more is needed to be said on this.

Let me move on the last verse 9:111:
This can be accurately dubbed as the verse of 9/11 attacks. Life of Muslims has been purchased by Allah for fighting in Allah’s cause (i.e., Jihad), in which they must slay and be slain. That is, they must wage Jihad and try their best to slay the kafirs. Obviously some Jihadis would be killed in such holy wars. But this death in Jihad battles, called martyrdom, is no loss for Muslims; instead, it the greatest, the most desirable, thing ever can happen to a Muslim; because, this martyrdom gives him a ticket for straight landing in Allah’s paradise. Getting a ticket to paradise, believe Muslims, is the central aim of their every action in this world.

Some master deceivers of Islam would tell us that Jihad means struggling with the self, which will help them gain paradise. I hope, some of them will come forward and explain to us as to how struggling with the self would result in slaying the kafirs and getting killed in the process. Probably Ghouse can enlighten us on that.

Let me emphasize that Ghouse has done little research on the Quran. Moreover, he is either a good-hearted person with little knowledge of Islam or he is on a mission of deceiving the gullible kafirs. The fact that he said,

Has Ghouse torn away those pages of his Quran that contain these manufactured verses of brutality?

Let me emphasize to the reader that engaging with ignorants or deceivers like Ghouse takes us to no meaningful enlightenment on the subject. Therefore, I may wish to conclude this debate here, unless Ghouse comes forward with some solid, well-researched, arguments that deserve a response.

However, if readers are keen to get a full picture of the incitement of violence (i.e., Jihad) in Islam, I urge them to get a copy of my just-released book, “Islam Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism and Slavery.”
I am getting some very encouraging assessments on the book from experts, including from top professors (see in the link). I believe this book will have a strong humanizing impact on Muslims (the radical ones), while help everyone understand why the world today is mired in the horror of terrorism.

MA Khan is a liberal humanist and the author of Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery. He also edits the Islam-watch.org website. Email this • Digg This! • Submit to Reddit • Save to del.icio.us • Submit to Propeller • Stumble It!

Does Qur'aan incite Violence?

DOES QUR'AAN INCITE VIOLENCE?
A dialogue between M.A. Khand and Mike Ghouse
Mike Ghouse, Dallas, Texas

Mr. Mike Ghouse (MBA, M.Com), claims his Website, is by a Speaker, Thinker & Writer on Pluralism/Interfaith, Terrorism, Islam, India & peace. He is a well-known Muslim activist based in Dallas and a prolific contributor to many Websites, including Desicritics. I have been confronted by him (also noticed him confronting others) on a few occasions, including once in Desicritics, that the Qur'aan is a book of peace and that there is no violent verses in the Qur'aan.

Recently a Hindu writer, in an e-mail group, commented on why Muslim terrorists bomb and cause harrowing carnage in Indian cities---such as Bangalore, Ahmedabad etc.---one after another that:

“In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on. So the Koran says:

• “We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts” (7.179)
• “Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment” (4.56)
• “Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish” (3.85)
• “I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers” (8.12)
• “Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them” (8.13)
• “moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come” (3.56)
• “they shall suffer a grievous punishment” (3.77).
• “They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain” (9:111).”

In response, Mike Ghouse as usual threw in his challenge:

It is time to get over the propaganda that has been dished out over the years. There is no such verse in Qur'an, if you have the list produce me one. Not what is handed down to you, but the one you can point to? Remember, finding the truth is one's own responsibility. You have an open challenge here. Let’s clean the slates and live in peace, one person at a time.

Terrorism is committed by individuals and not religions, these are the dirty games played by individuals donning the mask of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus or any one. They have everything to gain to upload hatred between people.

Although I deal with violent aspects of the Qur'aan in my Website, previously I couldn’t take on Ghouse’s challenges because of the scarcity of time. This time I have taken it up. Ghouse has agreed to an open debate with me, which we have agreed to publish in Websites. Since, we both have published in Desicritics and come from that part of the world and that the debate started concerning Islamic terrorism issues in India, Desicritics is the best place to bring this debate to readers.

In this first installment, I am initiating the debate and hope Mr. Ghouse will soon do his part to continue the debate through.

Dear Mike Ghouse,

I am, hereby, taking up your open challenge and opening the debate here.
The said Indian writer has produced a set of Qur'aanic verses, which obviously incite violence. You can see it yourself and still, you deny that there are no violent verses in the Qur'aan. These verses have obviously been picked from the Qur'aan according to my checking of six different translations. May I now ask you the following questions:

1. Why do you think that these verses do not exist in the Qur'aan?
2. If you think that they exist in the Qur'aan, why do you think that they do not incite violence?
3. Allah himself urges Muslims to ‘strike terror into the heart of the infidels’ [8:12]. Why do you disagree with Allah? Who knows better? You or Allah?
4. Likewise, Prophet Muhammad also said: “I have been victorious with terror.” Why do you disagree with Prophet Muhammad? Do you know better than the Prophet? Why do you think that Prophet Muhammad lied?

Let our debate start from here. I wait for your response. Once the debate is completed we will publish it on websites.

MA Khan is a liberal humanist and the author of Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery. He also edits the Islam-watch.org website.

[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[( RESPONSE BY MIKE GHOUSE )]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Saturday, February 14, 2009
Quoting Mr. Khan within the solid lines
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Does the Qur'aan Incite Violence? A Debate with Mike Ghouse, Part 1
http://desicritics.org/2009/02/15/000156.php

"In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on. So the Koran says:

• "We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts" (7.179)
• "Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment" (4.56)
• "Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish" (3.85)
• "I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers" (8.12)
• "Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them" (8.13)
• "moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come" (3.56)
• "they shall suffer a grievous punishment" (3.77).
• "They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain" (9:111)."

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1. Why do you think that these verses do not exist in the Qur'aan?
2. If you think that they exist in the Qur'aan, why do you think that they do not incite violence?
3. Allah himself urges Muslims to 'strike terror into the heart of the infidels' [8:12]. Why do you disagree with Allah? Who knows better? You or Allah?
4. Likewise, Prophet Muhammad also said: "I have been victorious with terror." Why do you disagree with Prophet Muhammad? Do you know better than the Prophet? Why do you think that Prophet Muhammad lied?
_____________________________________________

I am pleased to respond to the above item by item
Quoted as: "We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts" (7.179)

As a habit, I include at least one sentence (Verse) before and one after the given sentence to give a better understanding of the verse.

7:178 (Asad) He whom God guides, he alone is truly guided; whereas those whom He lets go astray-it is they, they who are the losers!

Mike: It is the belief in all religions, that everything that happens is God's will, the Bhagavad Gita says, even the blade of grass is God's will. Here God is nature, the energy of the creator that makes things happen.

7:179 (Asad) And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the invisible beings [143] and men who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way: [144] it is they, they who are the [truly] heedless!

144 - Lit.; "they are farther astray"-inasmuch as animals follow only their instincts and natural needs and are not conscious of the possibility or necessity of a moral choice. (Qur'aan Ref: 7:179 )

Mike: All the holy books and the law books reasonably establish the consequences for one's behavior. Indeed, as the law of Karma is understood, those who do not do the right deeds in this life, they are bound to born in less than human form, where they have all the senses of eyes, ears etc, yet fail to grasp the morality as humans. Hell denotes less than desirable life. I will be occasionally referencing Hindu scriptures as the man who has produced this information is of Hindu faith.

I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse ""In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."

I have no idea what he was thinking when he wrote the less than intelligent statement.

7:180 (Asad) AND GOD'S [alone] are the attributes of perfection; [145] invoke Him, then, by these, and stand aloof from all who distort the meaning of His attributes: [146] they shall be requited for all that they were wont to do!

145 - This passage connects with the mention, at the end of the preceding verse, of "the heedless ones" who do not use their faculty of discernment in the way intended for it by God, and remain heedless of Him who comprises within Himself all the attributes of perfection and represents, therefore, the Ultimate Reality. As regards the expression al-asma' al-husna (lit., "the most perfect [or "most goodly"] names"), which occurs in the Qur'an four times-i.e., in the above verse as well as in 17:110, 20:8 and 59:24-it is to be borne in mind that the term ism is, primarily, a word applied to denote the substance or the intrinsic attributes of an object under consideration, while the term al-husna is the plural form of al-ahsan ("that which is best" or "most goodly"). Thus, the combination al-asma' al-husna may be appropriately rendered as "the attributes of perfection" -a term reserved in the Qur'an for God alone. (Qur'aan Ref: 7:180 )

146- Le., by applying them to other beings or objects or, alternatively, by trying to "define" God in anthropomorphic terms and relationships, like "father" or "son" (Razi). (Qur'aan Ref: 7:180 )

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Quoted as: "Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment" (4.56)

4:55 (Asad) and among them are such as [truly] believe in him, [72] and among them are such as have turned away from him. And nothing could be as burning as [the fire of] hell:
[72]I.e., in Abraham - implying that they are faithful to his message. It is to be borne in mind that the Prophet Muhammad, too, was a direct-line descendant of Abraham, whose message is confirmed and continued in the Qur'aan. (Qur'aan Ref: 4:55 )

4:56 (Asad) for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] [73] Verily, God is almighty, wise.

[73] This awesome allegory of suffering in the life to come is obviously meant to bring out the long-lasting nature of that suffering (Razi). (Qur'aan Ref: 4:56 )

Mike: The concept of reward and punishment exists in all human endeavors; Swarga and Naraka have been a part of the Hindu system of belief. Naraka is not a place one would enjoy life, it is a bloody hell. The paradise and the hell exist in all forms of justice. Whether it is religious texts or civil or criminal laws there is always a grim consequence or liberation. What is God's message? What does it mean when Krishna says "Surrender to me?" and What does Jesus or Allah mean when they say "follow me" or "submit to my will respectively?."

It does not mean falling flat on the ground and acting dead, it rather means, following the path of truth, dharma - the golden rule in every religion; treat others as you would wanted to be treated. It is the fear of punishment that is a deterrent from wrong doing, as a result ensuring a fairly peaceful existence. The above verse would be wrong in Qur'aan, IF our criminal laws say there is no punishment for the violent killer, rapists or a thief. Imagine your society without the punishment!

For the 2nd time, I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."

Where did he cook this up from? And How many has he fed this? I wish he had made the effort to follow Bhagvad Gita "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility".

4:57 (Asad) But those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds We shall bring into gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time; there shall they have spouses pure: and [thus] We shall bring them unto happiness abounding. [74]

[74] The primary meaning of zill is "shade", and so the expression zill zalil could be rendered as "most shading shade"- i.e., "dense shade". However, in ancient Arabic usage, the word zill denotes also "a covering" or "a shelter" and, figuratively, "protection" (Raghib); and, finally, "a state of ease, pleasure and plenty" (cf. Lane V, 1915 f.), or simply "happiness" - and in the combination of zill zalil, "abundant happiness" (Razi) - which seems to agree best with the allegorical implications of the term "paradise". (Qur'aan Ref: 4:57 )

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Quoted as "Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish" (3.85)

3:84 (Asad) Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. [68] And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."
[68] - The prophets
3:85 (Asad) For, if one goes in search of a religion other than self-surrender unto God, it will never be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the lost.

Mike : Just as Lord Krishna proclaims " whenever adharma takes over the society, I will re-appear to bring the dharma back", God says in Qur'aan that" to every nation, every tribe, and every community he has sent a messenger to bring the righteousness back whenever the society went astray.

Then Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of God, is the best in conduct. God Knows and is Aware of everything we do." Dharma operates when people conduct themselves well and treat others as they would want to be treated. That is when Satya (truth ) triumphs.

If you do not follow what Lord Krishna says or God says, the results are same - adharma prevails.

Qur'aan further adds that " it is your Karma that earns you a place in heaven, not necessarily your prayers and wealth. Prophet Muhammad told his own daughter that she will have to earn her place with her Karma and she ain't going to get a free pass because she is the daughter of the prophet. It is individual responsibility.

For the third time, I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."

Where did he cook this up from? And How many has he fed this? I wish he had made the effort to follow Bhagvad Gita "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility".

3:86 (Asad) How would God bestow His guidance upon people who have resolved to deny the truth after having attained to faith, and having borne witness that this Apostle is true, and [after] all evidence of the truth has come unto them? [69] For, God does not guide such evildoing folk.

[69] The people referred to are the Jews and the Christians. Their acceptance of the Bible, which predicts the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, has made them "witnesses" to the truth of his prophethood. See also verses 70 and 81 above. (Qur'aan Ref: 3:86 )
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Quoted as: "I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers" (8.12)

I will stop at this... I bet, there is a pattern of mis-information here. I call it mis-information because it incites hate among Hindus for Muslims. Right information like right karma would help one heal and create goodness.

If you want me to continue, I will. But I think this should be sufficient, I have responded to similar false claims umpteen times.

Pick up the Qur'aan translation by Mohammad Asad, or a few others and look directly into it. I did not write any of the above except my comments. It is all from the Qur'aan.

It is another story that the Europeans had paid to mistranslate the Qur'aan and even called it a Mohammadan Religion. Much of it is documented at the blog http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/

Mike Ghouse
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• "Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them" (8.13)
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• "moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come" (3.56)
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• "they shall suffer a grievous punishment" (3.77).
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• "They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain" (9:111)."
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