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Monday, January 5, 2015

Quranic verses 4.89; 9.5 and 9.29

You may want to start from the bottom of the conversation to make it to the top – The following is a conversation with a group of about 15 of my Hindu friends and I in the last three days.  Mike Ghouse

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Amalda,

You and I are fulfilling the purpose of a dialogue – that is to share each other’s point of view without having to agree it all but a few points at one time, but more importantly respectfully understand it.

I do agree that there are Muslims, (not the majority as we have severe discussions about it) who think Allah is theirs, and others have their own. It is considered greatest sin in Islam to think that there is more than one God.  Last week we produced three video discussions with one of the respected Imams of Dallas, myself leading it, and 5 others – and this very point was discussed. Hope to get the video out in a week on YouTube.

I wrote several articles, and one of them impacted the Malaysian clergy to back out on the same issue, along with several other writers and protestors – Who Owns Allah? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-ghouse/who-owns-allah-the-god-th_b_4143551.html

Bad things are happening in Iraq, ISIS, and Bangladesh… Darfur Genocides was bad; thank God it is limited to those few nations.  We have our own shameful history too with Sikhs and Muslims, and I hope RSS does no mess it up further and I pray for Modi to speak up and show that he in charge and stay on the course of vikas and drop the bakwas.  

Let’s blame the bad guys, and punish them as Bangladesh is doing instead of blaming the religion, it amounts to aimless barking and serves nothing.

Thank you

Mike

Thank you

mike
In a message dated 1/5/2015 11:33:58 A.M. Central Standard Time, xxxDALLAS@aol.com writes:

Dear Mike:

Didn't want to prolong this debate. I agree with what you have said that we should not blame a religion for misdeed by a few but need to point out one very important and disturbing aspect of Muslim thinking. That is, the majority of Muslims (not you) tacitly and foolishly think that Allah is a different (superior) God from "other Gods". Allah, in most translation, has not been changed to God giving rise to an impression that Allah and Islam are a  superior entity from others (Islamic God only). You have correctly used the word God in your English translation but most do not. They purposely do not change the word Allah in their translation and Muslims literally believe that if non Muslims do not pray to Allah (by converting to Islam) they are non believers and non religious so can be killed wherever found. In short, respect for other religion is lacking in Islam. As long as they don't believe  "God is Allah and Allah is God", mass genocide in Islamic countries will continue. HOPE OUR FRIENDS IN RSS DO NOT FOLLOW THAT PATH.

In a message dated 1/5/2015 2:20:57 A.M. Central Standard Time, MikeGhouse@aol.com writes:
Quranic verses 4:89; 9:5 and 9:29

Amalda,  your commentary was serious and here I am taking the time to respond you. You have a genuine desire to seek the truth, which you have to find it on your own.  Here is however my story and my take. If I had sensed you were merely attacking, I would not have responded.

You still have no answered my questions from my previous response; instead you have asked more questions. Could you please respond to those questions?

I chose to walk out of Islam for precisely the same reason that you have quoted for nearly 30 years of my life.   I was an Atheist until 1999, however, I was always respectful of all religions and referred to them occasionally, one such day, I flipped pages in Bhagvad Gita and found this life changing idea “Finding the truth is one’s own responsibility “and it hit me like a ton of bricks – that very same morning I heard similar attacks on Islam on the TV and I agreed with the attackers. I decided to reject “all the hearsay” about Islam and check it out one more time objectively. Thanks to Bhagvad Gita’s wisdom, I chose to become a Muslim, it is one of the three reasons, there are several write up and videos on my site about it.

I will not elaborate, as you have to find your own truth.  I have done a major conference on Quran in Dallas – with debates on TV and Dallas Morning News – details are at www.Quraanconference.com

There is a consistency in Quran in dealing with conflicts, and here it is:
It may be worth your while to see the list of the mistranslated verses and how the fear mongers in the market have capitalized on those. The best way to understand Quran is to remember, "If it is not about justice, mercy and creating harmony", then the translation is wrong. Go back and read it several times, three verse before the 'wrongfully maligned' verse and three afterwards, and read at least three to four translations. Quran in Arabic is precisely same and well preserved, but its translation and interpretations are not. The treatment of verses is at www.Quraantoday.com and the full story of Quran conference is at www.Quraanconference.com


Quran structured as follows to deal with conflict.

1. If someone is aggressive and is in an attacking mode
2. You ask them to back off and not attack back
3. If they still attack you, you chase them
4. If they hide, find them wherever they are
5. If they jump on you, kill them before they kill you.
7. However, if they back off and repent, do not attack them anymore
6. If they sincerely want to be friend, give them the chance.
 
In response to your note about the three verses,  I have copied a verse before the verse you quoted, and a verse after that to see for yourselves. Ideally, three before and three after would be better.
Here is your note,

<<<
 Muslims who become apostates must be murdered (Quran 4:89).

 There is no freewill for non-Muslims who refuse to accept Islam. They must be murdered as per Quran 9:5 if they are idol-worshippers; or in the case of Christians/Jews, they submit to Islam, pay a submission tax and live as oppressed dhimmi under Muslim domination [Quran 9:29].

These are just two of the numerous Quranic verses, ordering conquest and murder of non-Muslims.  


And here is my response;

Straight from Quran’s authentice translations by Muhammad Asad
Online at: http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/  Please feel free to check anything you want. There are still three verses that have been misinterpreted, and which is being corrected in the other translations.  If you are serious, I will give you a copy of the Quran.

4:88 (Asad) How, then, could you be of two minds [106] about the hypocrites, seeing that God [Himself] has disowned them because of their guilt? [107] Do you, perchance, seek to guide those whom God has let go astray - when for him whom God lets go astray thou canst never find any way? - 


4:89 (Asad) They would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Do not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil [108] for the sake of God; and if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you may find them. And do not take any of them [109]for your ally or giver of succour, - 

4:90 (Asad) unless it be such [of them] as have ties with people to whom you yourselves are bound by a covenant, or such as come unto you because their hearts shrink from [the thought of] making war either on you or on their own folk - although, if God had willed to make them stronger than you, they would certainly have made war on you. [110]Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them. [111]
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9:4 (Asad) But excepted shall be [4] -from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God - [people] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant and who thereafter have in no wise failed to fulfil their obligations towards you, and neither have aided anyone against you: observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them. [5] Verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him.- javascript://  http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http://www.islamiCity.com/quransearch/?ref=9:4&lang=Asad


9:5 (Asad) And so, when the sacred months are over [6] , slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, [7] and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every conceivable place [8] ! Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace. [9] 

Note 7: Read in conjunction with the two preceding verses, as well as with 2:190-194, the above verse relates to warfare already in progress with people who have become guilty of a breach of treaty obligations and of aggression

9:6 (Asad) And if any of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God seeks thy protection, [10] grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure: [11] this, because they [may be] people who [sin only because they] do not know [the truth]. - 


 
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9:28 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God are nothing but impure: [37] and so they shall not approach the Inviolable House of Worship from this year onwards [38] And should you fear poverty, then [know that] in time God will enrich you out of His bounty, if He so wills: [39] for, verily, God is all-knowing, wise! - javascript://  http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http://www.islamiCity.com/quransearch/?ref=9:28&lang=Asad

9:29 (Asad) [And] fight against those who - despite having been vouchsafed revelation [aforetime] [40] -do not [truly] believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, [41] and do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them] [42] till they [agree to] pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled [in war].[43] - 

Note 42 – All people have their religion, and when they violate their own religion

Note 43 - every able-bodied Muslim is liable to compulsory military service. Since this is, primarily, a religious obligation, non-Muslim citizens, who do not subscribe to the ideology of Islam, cannot in fairness be expected to assume a similar burden. On the other hand, they must be accorded full protection of all their civic rights and of their religious freedom: and it is in order to compensate the Muslim community for this unequal distribution of civic burdens that a special tax is levied on non-Muslim citizens (ahl adh-dhimmah, lit., "covenanted" [or "protected"] people", i.e., non-Muslims whose safety is statutorily assured by the Muslim community). Thus, jizyah is no more and no less than an exemption tax in lieu of military service and in compensation for the "covenant of protection" (dhimmah) accorded to such citizens by the Islamic state.

9:30 (Asad) AND THE JEWS say, "Ezra is God's son," while the Christians say, "The Christ is God's son." Such are the sayings which they utter with their mouths, following in spirit assertions made in earlier times by people who denied the truth! [44] [They deserve the imprecation:] "May God destroy them!" [45] How perverted are their minds! [46] - javascript://  http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=http://www.islamiCity.com/quransearch/?ref=9:30&lang=Asad


Thank you

mike
Mike Ghouse

(214) 325-1916 text/talk
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Mike Ghouse is a public speaker, thinker, writer and a commentator on Pluralism at work place, politics, religion, society, gender, race, culture, ethnicity, food and foreign policy. He is a staunch defender of human rights and his book standing up for others will be out soon, and a movie "Americans together" is in the making.  He is a frequent guest commentator on Fox News and syndicated Talk Radio shows and a writer at major news papers including Dallas Morning News and Huffington Post. All about him is listed in 63 links at www.MikeGhouse.net and his writings are at www.TheGhousediary.com and 10 other blogs. He is committed to building cohesive societies and offers pluralistic solutions on issues of the day. 

In a message dated 1/5/2015 12:27:45 A.M. Central Standard Time, xxxDALLAS@aol.com writes:

In a message dated 1/4/2015 11:46:52 P.M. Central Standard Time, MikeGhouse@aol.com writes:
Amalda,

What has religion got to do with crimes committed by individuals?

Can you tell me, didn't Hindus kill other Hindus in the wars before? Right from Vedic times to Mahabharata to 10th Century India? How many Hindus Ashoka Slaughtered before becoming a Buddhist? How many Sikhs did Hindus murder  in 3 days and again within a week, how many Muslims did Hindus slaughter and raped during the Gujarat riots? Was Hindu Religion Violent? Hell no, neither Islam is violent or peaceful nor Hinduism is. People are violent, and not all people, a small percentage of them in every group. Wake up and see the facts. We have to blame the wrong doers and not others.

Nuclear power in the hands of bad guys is dangerous, where as the same nuclear power in the hands of good people is beneficent. Religion is innocent just as the nuclear power.

4 Million Americans are in Jails, where as 314 Million are not. Same law books apply to both - is the law books wrong?

In the case you have cited - Muslims have killed Muslims and we did a program on that. What has Islam got to do with the tyrants?

A wrong is a wrong no matter who commits it. A rapist must be punished as rapist and not as a Hindu or a Muslim; a terrorist must be punished as a terrorist and not as a Muslim or a Hindu. Blame the individual and not the religion. You can punish the guy and restore justice in the society, but you cannot punish the religion, it is not a thing - and you cannot kill, kick, hang, beat up, shoot or bury the religion, then why bark at it?  
If you know anything about statistics, you would ascribe insignificant numbers to denote the whole. 
Thank you

Mike Ghouse

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In a message dated 1/4/2015 10:58:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, xxxDALLAS@aol.com writes:

ISLAM IS A RELIGION OF PEACE !

In a message dated 1/4/2015 8:32:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, xxx001@gmail.com writes:
my dear bhakti ,
u might recall my pointing out (sometime back)that releasing the Paki POWs who were on a binge in India at the indian taxpayers expense was-to me-good riddance.
HOWEVER
The perpetrators of the genocicde and in particular the selective killing of intellectual(some of it occured hours 
before gen niazi's aurrender-should have been tried for war crimes and i would have been glad to see them get it in the neck 
samir    
Rayerbazar killing field photographed immediately after the war started, showing bodies of Bengali nationalist intellectuals (Image courtesy: Rashid Talukdar, 1971)
During the war, the Pakistan Army and its local collaborators, mainly Jamaat e Islami carried out a systematic execution of the leading Bengali intellectuals. A number of professors from Dhaka University were killed during the first few days of the war.[49][50] However, the most extreme cases oftargeted killing of intellectuals took place during the last few days of the war. Professors, journalists, doctors, artists, engineers and writers were rounded up by Pakistan Army and the Razakarmilitia in Dhaka, blindfolded, taken to torture cells in Mirpur, Mohammadpur, Nakhalpara, Rajarbagh and other locations in different sections of the city to be executed en masse, most notably at Rayerbazar and Mirpur.[51][52][53][54] Allegedly, the Pakistani Army and its paramilitary arm, the Al-Badr and Al-Shams forces created a list of doctors, teachers, poets, and scholars.[55][56]
During the nine-month duration of the war, the Pakistani army, with the assistance of local collaborators systematically executed an estimated 991 teachers, 13 journalists, 49 physicians, 42 lawyers, and 16 writers, artists and engineers.[53] Even after the official ending of the war on 16 December there were reports of killings being committed by either the armed Pakistani soldiers or by their collaborators. In one such incident, notable film-maker Jahir Raihan was killed on 30 January 1972 in Mirpur allegedly by the armed Beharis. In memory of the persons who were killed, 14 December is observed in Bangladesh as Shaheed Buddhijibi Dibosh ("Day of the Martyred Intellectuals").[35][57][58]

Several notable intellectuals who were killed from the time period of 25 March to 16 December 1971 in different parts of the country include Dhaka University professors Dr.Govinda Chandra Dev (Philosophy), Dr. Munier Chowdhury (Bengali Literature), Dr.Mufazzal Haider Chaudhury (Bengali Literature), Dr. Anwar Pasha (Bengali Literature), Dr M Abul Khair (History), Dr. Jyotirmoy Guhathakurta (English Literature), Humayun Kabir (English Literature), Rashidul Hasan (English Literature), Ghyasuddin AhmedSirajul Haque KhanFaizul Mahi, Dr Santosh Chandra Bhattacharyya[59] and Saidul Hassan (Physics), Rajshahi University professors Dr. Hobibur Rahman (Mathematics), Prof Sukhranjan Somaddar (Sanskrit), Prof Mir Abdul Quaiyum (Psychology) as well as Dr.Mohammed Fazle Rabbee (Cardiologist), Dr. AFM Alim Chowdhury (Ophthalmologist),Shahidullah Kaiser (Journalist), Nizamuddin Ahmed (Journalist),[60] Selina Parvin(Journalist), Altaf Mahmud (Lyricist and musician), Dhirendranath Datta (Politician), Jahir Raihan (novelist, journalist, film director) and Ranadaprasad Saha (Philanthropist).[61][62]

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