A dialogue between M.A. Khand and Mike Ghouse
Mike Ghouse, Dallas, Texas
Mr. Mike Ghouse (MBA, M.Com), claims his Website, is by a Speaker, Thinker & Writer on Pluralism/Interfaith, Terrorism, Islam, India & peace. He is a well-known Muslim activist based in Dallas and a prolific contributor to many Websites, including Desicritics. I have been confronted by him (also noticed him confronting others) on a few occasions, including once in Desicritics, that the Qur'aan is a book of peace and that there is no violent verses in the Qur'aan.
Recently a Hindu writer, in an e-mail group, commented on why Muslim terrorists bomb and cause harrowing carnage in Indian cities---such as Bangalore, Ahmedabad etc.---one after another that:
“In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on. So the Koran says:
• “We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts” (7.179)
• “Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment” (4.56)
• “Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish” (3.85)
• “I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers” (8.12)
• “Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them” (8.13)
• “moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come” (3.56)
• “they shall suffer a grievous punishment” (3.77).
• “They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain” (9:111).”
In response, Mike Ghouse as usual threw in his challenge:
It is time to get over the propaganda that has been dished out over the years. There is no such verse in Qur'an, if you have the list produce me one. Not what is handed down to you, but the one you can point to? Remember, finding the truth is one's own responsibility. You have an open challenge here. Let’s clean the slates and live in peace, one person at a time.
Terrorism is committed by individuals and not religions, these are the dirty games played by individuals donning the mask of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus or any one. They have everything to gain to upload hatred between people.
Although I deal with violent aspects of the Qur'aan in my Website, previously I couldn’t take on Ghouse’s challenges because of the scarcity of time. This time I have taken it up. Ghouse has agreed to an open debate with me, which we have agreed to publish in Websites. Since, we both have published in Desicritics and come from that part of the world and that the debate started concerning Islamic terrorism issues in India, Desicritics is the best place to bring this debate to readers.
In this first installment, I am initiating the debate and hope Mr. Ghouse will soon do his part to continue the debate through.
Dear Mike Ghouse,
I am, hereby, taking up your open challenge and opening the debate here.
The said Indian writer has produced a set of Qur'aanic verses, which obviously incite violence. You can see it yourself and still, you deny that there are no violent verses in the Qur'aan. These verses have obviously been picked from the Qur'aan according to my checking of six different translations. May I now ask you the following questions:
1. Why do you think that these verses do not exist in the Qur'aan?
2. If you think that they exist in the Qur'aan, why do you think that they do not incite violence?
3. Allah himself urges Muslims to ‘strike terror into the heart of the infidels’ [8:12]. Why do you disagree with Allah? Who knows better? You or Allah?
4. Likewise, Prophet Muhammad also said: “I have been victorious with terror.” Why do you disagree with Prophet Muhammad? Do you know better than the Prophet? Why do you think that Prophet Muhammad lied?
Let our debate start from here. I wait for your response. Once the debate is completed we will publish it on websites.
MA Khan is a liberal humanist and the author of Islamic Jihad: A Legacy of Forced Conversion, Imperialism, and Slavery. He also edits the Islam-watch.org website.
[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[( RESPONSE BY MIKE GHOUSE )]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
Saturday, February 14, 2009
Quoting Mr. Khan within the solid lines
_____________________________________________
Does the Qur'aan Incite Violence? A Debate with Mike Ghouse, Part 1
http://desicritics.org/2009/02/15/000156.php
"In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on. So the Koran says:
• "We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts" (7.179)
• "Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment" (4.56)
• "Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish" (3.85)
• "I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers" (8.12)
• "Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them" (8.13)
• "moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come" (3.56)
• "they shall suffer a grievous punishment" (3.77).
• "They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain" (9:111)."
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1. Why do you think that these verses do not exist in the Qur'aan?
2. If you think that they exist in the Qur'aan, why do you think that they do not incite violence?
3. Allah himself urges Muslims to 'strike terror into the heart of the infidels' [8:12]. Why do you disagree with Allah? Who knows better? You or Allah?
4. Likewise, Prophet Muhammad also said: "I have been victorious with terror." Why do you disagree with Prophet Muhammad? Do you know better than the Prophet? Why do you think that Prophet Muhammad lied?
_____________________________________________
I am pleased to respond to the above item by item
Quoted as: "We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts" (7.179)
As a habit, I include at least one sentence (Verse) before and one after the given sentence to give a better understanding of the verse.
7:178 (Asad) He whom God guides, he alone is truly guided; whereas those whom He lets go astray-it is they, they who are the losers!
Mike: It is the belief in all religions, that everything that happens is God's will, the Bhagavad Gita says, even the blade of grass is God's will. Here God is nature, the energy of the creator that makes things happen.
7:179 (Asad) And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the invisible beings [143] and men who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way: [144] it is they, they who are the [truly] heedless!
144 - Lit.; "they are farther astray"-inasmuch as animals follow only their instincts and natural needs and are not conscious of the possibility or necessity of a moral choice. (Qur'aan Ref: 7:179 )
Mike: All the holy books and the law books reasonably establish the consequences for one's behavior. Indeed, as the law of Karma is understood, those who do not do the right deeds in this life, they are bound to born in less than human form, where they have all the senses of eyes, ears etc, yet fail to grasp the morality as humans. Hell denotes less than desirable life. I will be occasionally referencing Hindu scriptures as the man who has produced this information is of Hindu faith.
I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse ""In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."
I have no idea what he was thinking when he wrote the less than intelligent statement.
7:180 (Asad) AND GOD'S [alone] are the attributes of perfection; [145] invoke Him, then, by these, and stand aloof from all who distort the meaning of His attributes: [146] they shall be requited for all that they were wont to do!
145 - This passage connects with the mention, at the end of the preceding verse, of "the heedless ones" who do not use their faculty of discernment in the way intended for it by God, and remain heedless of Him who comprises within Himself all the attributes of perfection and represents, therefore, the Ultimate Reality. As regards the expression al-asma' al-husna (lit., "the most perfect [or "most goodly"] names"), which occurs in the Qur'an four times-i.e., in the above verse as well as in 17:110, 20:8 and 59:24-it is to be borne in mind that the term ism is, primarily, a word applied to denote the substance or the intrinsic attributes of an object under consideration, while the term al-husna is the plural form of al-ahsan ("that which is best" or "most goodly"). Thus, the combination al-asma' al-husna may be appropriately rendered as "the attributes of perfection" -a term reserved in the Qur'an for God alone. (Qur'aan Ref: 7:180 )
146- Le., by applying them to other beings or objects or, alternatively, by trying to "define" God in anthropomorphic terms and relationships, like "father" or "son" (Razi). (Qur'aan Ref: 7:180 )
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Quoted as: "Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment" (4.56)
4:55 (Asad) and among them are such as [truly] believe in him, [72] and among them are such as have turned away from him. And nothing could be as burning as [the fire of] hell:
[72]I.e., in Abraham - implying that they are faithful to his message. It is to be borne in mind that the Prophet Muhammad, too, was a direct-line descendant of Abraham, whose message is confirmed and continued in the Qur'aan. (Qur'aan Ref: 4:55 )
4:56 (Asad) for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] [73] Verily, God is almighty, wise.
[73] This awesome allegory of suffering in the life to come is obviously meant to bring out the long-lasting nature of that suffering (Razi). (Qur'aan Ref: 4:56 )
Mike: The concept of reward and punishment exists in all human endeavors; Swarga and Naraka have been a part of the Hindu system of belief. Naraka is not a place one would enjoy life, it is a bloody hell. The paradise and the hell exist in all forms of justice. Whether it is religious texts or civil or criminal laws there is always a grim consequence or liberation. What is God's message? What does it mean when Krishna says "Surrender to me?" and What does Jesus or Allah mean when they say "follow me" or "submit to my will respectively?."
It does not mean falling flat on the ground and acting dead, it rather means, following the path of truth, dharma - the golden rule in every religion; treat others as you would wanted to be treated. It is the fear of punishment that is a deterrent from wrong doing, as a result ensuring a fairly peaceful existence. The above verse would be wrong in Qur'aan, IF our criminal laws say there is no punishment for the violent killer, rapists or a thief. Imagine your society without the punishment!
For the 2nd time, I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."
Where did he cook this up from? And How many has he fed this? I wish he had made the effort to follow Bhagvad Gita "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility".
4:57 (Asad) But those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds We shall bring into gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time; there shall they have spouses pure: and [thus] We shall bring them unto happiness abounding. [74]
[74] The primary meaning of zill is "shade", and so the expression zill zalil could be rendered as "most shading shade"- i.e., "dense shade". However, in ancient Arabic usage, the word zill denotes also "a covering" or "a shelter" and, figuratively, "protection" (Raghib); and, finally, "a state of ease, pleasure and plenty" (cf. Lane V, 1915 f.), or simply "happiness" - and in the combination of zill zalil, "abundant happiness" (Razi) - which seems to agree best with the allegorical implications of the term "paradise". (Qur'aan Ref: 4:57 )
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Quoted as "Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish" (3.85)
3:84 (Asad) Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. [68] And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."
[68] - The prophets
3:85 (Asad) For, if one goes in search of a religion other than self-surrender unto God, it will never be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the lost.
Mike : Just as Lord Krishna proclaims " whenever adharma takes over the society, I will re-appear to bring the dharma back", God says in Qur'aan that" to every nation, every tribe, and every community he has sent a messenger to bring the righteousness back whenever the society went astray.
Then Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of God, is the best in conduct. God Knows and is Aware of everything we do." Dharma operates when people conduct themselves well and treat others as they would want to be treated. That is when Satya (truth ) triumphs.
If you do not follow what Lord Krishna says or God says, the results are same - adharma prevails.
Qur'aan further adds that " it is your Karma that earns you a place in heaven, not necessarily your prayers and wealth. Prophet Muhammad told his own daughter that she will have to earn her place with her Karma and she ain't going to get a free pass because she is the daughter of the prophet. It is individual responsibility.
For the third time, I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."
Where did he cook this up from? And How many has he fed this? I wish he had made the effort to follow Bhagvad Gita "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility".
3:86 (Asad) How would God bestow His guidance upon people who have resolved to deny the truth after having attained to faith, and having borne witness that this Apostle is true, and [after] all evidence of the truth has come unto them? [69] For, God does not guide such evildoing folk.
[69] The people referred to are the Jews and the Christians. Their acceptance of the Bible, which predicts the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, has made them "witnesses" to the truth of his prophethood. See also verses 70 and 81 above. (Qur'aan Ref: 3:86 )
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Quoted as: "I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers" (8.12)
I will stop at this... I bet, there is a pattern of mis-information here. I call it mis-information because it incites hate among Hindus for Muslims. Right information like right karma would help one heal and create goodness.
If you want me to continue, I will. But I think this should be sufficient, I have responded to similar false claims umpteen times.
Pick up the Qur'aan translation by Mohammad Asad, or a few others and look directly into it. I did not write any of the above except my comments. It is all from the Qur'aan.
It is another story that the Europeans had paid to mistranslate the Qur'aan and even called it a Mohammadan Religion. Much of it is documented at the blog http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/
Mike Ghouse
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• "Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them" (8.13)
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
• "moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come" (3.56)
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
• "they shall suffer a grievous punishment" (3.77).
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
• "They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain" (9:111)."
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
http://desicritics.org/2009/02/15/000156.php
"In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on. So the Koran says:
• "We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts" (7.179)
• "Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment" (4.56)
• "Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish" (3.85)
• "I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers" (8.12)
• "Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them" (8.13)
• "moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come" (3.56)
• "they shall suffer a grievous punishment" (3.77).
• "They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain" (9:111)."
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
1. Why do you think that these verses do not exist in the Qur'aan?
2. If you think that they exist in the Qur'aan, why do you think that they do not incite violence?
3. Allah himself urges Muslims to 'strike terror into the heart of the infidels' [8:12]. Why do you disagree with Allah? Who knows better? You or Allah?
4. Likewise, Prophet Muhammad also said: "I have been victorious with terror." Why do you disagree with Prophet Muhammad? Do you know better than the Prophet? Why do you think that Prophet Muhammad lied?
_____________________________________________
I am pleased to respond to the above item by item
Quoted as: "We have created, for hell, many genii (races) of men...and they are like brute beasts" (7.179)
As a habit, I include at least one sentence (Verse) before and one after the given sentence to give a better understanding of the verse.
7:178 (Asad) He whom God guides, he alone is truly guided; whereas those whom He lets go astray-it is they, they who are the losers!
Mike: It is the belief in all religions, that everything that happens is God's will, the Bhagavad Gita says, even the blade of grass is God's will. Here God is nature, the energy of the creator that makes things happen.
7:179 (Asad) And most certainly have We destined for hell many of the invisible beings [143] and men who have hearts with which they fail to grasp the truth, and eyes with which they fail to see, and ears with which they fail to hear. They are like cattle -nay, they are even less conscious of the right way: [144] it is they, they who are the [truly] heedless!
144 - Lit.; "they are farther astray"-inasmuch as animals follow only their instincts and natural needs and are not conscious of the possibility or necessity of a moral choice. (Qur'aan Ref: 7:179 )
Mike: All the holy books and the law books reasonably establish the consequences for one's behavior. Indeed, as the law of Karma is understood, those who do not do the right deeds in this life, they are bound to born in less than human form, where they have all the senses of eyes, ears etc, yet fail to grasp the morality as humans. Hell denotes less than desirable life. I will be occasionally referencing Hindu scriptures as the man who has produced this information is of Hindu faith.
I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse ""In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."
I have no idea what he was thinking when he wrote the less than intelligent statement.
7:180 (Asad) AND GOD'S [alone] are the attributes of perfection; [145] invoke Him, then, by these, and stand aloof from all who distort the meaning of His attributes: [146] they shall be requited for all that they were wont to do!
145 - This passage connects with the mention, at the end of the preceding verse, of "the heedless ones" who do not use their faculty of discernment in the way intended for it by God, and remain heedless of Him who comprises within Himself all the attributes of perfection and represents, therefore, the Ultimate Reality. As regards the expression al-asma' al-husna (lit., "the most perfect [or "most goodly"] names"), which occurs in the Qur'an four times-i.e., in the above verse as well as in 17:110, 20:8 and 59:24-it is to be borne in mind that the term ism is, primarily, a word applied to denote the substance or the intrinsic attributes of an object under consideration, while the term al-husna is the plural form of al-ahsan ("that which is best" or "most goodly"). Thus, the combination al-asma' al-husna may be appropriately rendered as "the attributes of perfection" -a term reserved in the Qur'an for God alone. (Qur'aan Ref: 7:180 )
146- Le., by applying them to other beings or objects or, alternatively, by trying to "define" God in anthropomorphic terms and relationships, like "father" or "son" (Razi). (Qur'aan Ref: 7:180 )
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Quoted as: "Verily, those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast them to be broiled in the hell-fire, so often as their skins shall be well burnt, We will give them new skins in exchange, so that they may taste the sharper torment" (4.56)
4:55 (Asad) and among them are such as [truly] believe in him, [72] and among them are such as have turned away from him. And nothing could be as burning as [the fire of] hell:
[72]I.e., in Abraham - implying that they are faithful to his message. It is to be borne in mind that the Prophet Muhammad, too, was a direct-line descendant of Abraham, whose message is confirmed and continued in the Qur'aan. (Qur'aan Ref: 4:55 )
4:56 (Asad) for, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full] [73] Verily, God is almighty, wise.
[73] This awesome allegory of suffering in the life to come is obviously meant to bring out the long-lasting nature of that suffering (Razi). (Qur'aan Ref: 4:56 )
Mike: The concept of reward and punishment exists in all human endeavors; Swarga and Naraka have been a part of the Hindu system of belief. Naraka is not a place one would enjoy life, it is a bloody hell. The paradise and the hell exist in all forms of justice. Whether it is religious texts or civil or criminal laws there is always a grim consequence or liberation. What is God's message? What does it mean when Krishna says "Surrender to me?" and What does Jesus or Allah mean when they say "follow me" or "submit to my will respectively?."
It does not mean falling flat on the ground and acting dead, it rather means, following the path of truth, dharma - the golden rule in every religion; treat others as you would wanted to be treated. It is the fear of punishment that is a deterrent from wrong doing, as a result ensuring a fairly peaceful existence. The above verse would be wrong in Qur'aan, IF our criminal laws say there is no punishment for the violent killer, rapists or a thief. Imagine your society without the punishment!
For the 2nd time, I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."
Where did he cook this up from? And How many has he fed this? I wish he had made the effort to follow Bhagvad Gita "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility".
4:57 (Asad) But those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds We shall bring into gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time; there shall they have spouses pure: and [thus] We shall bring them unto happiness abounding. [74]
[74] The primary meaning of zill is "shade", and so the expression zill zalil could be rendered as "most shading shade"- i.e., "dense shade". However, in ancient Arabic usage, the word zill denotes also "a covering" or "a shelter" and, figuratively, "protection" (Raghib); and, finally, "a state of ease, pleasure and plenty" (cf. Lane V, 1915 f.), or simply "happiness" - and in the combination of zill zalil, "abundant happiness" (Razi) - which seems to agree best with the allegorical implications of the term "paradise". (Qur'aan Ref: 4:57 )
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Quoted as "Whosoever followeth any religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him in this life, and in the next life he shall be of those who perish" (3.85)
3:84 (Asad) Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. [68] And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."
[68] - The prophets
3:85 (Asad) For, if one goes in search of a religion other than self-surrender unto God, it will never be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the lost.
Mike : Just as Lord Krishna proclaims " whenever adharma takes over the society, I will re-appear to bring the dharma back", God says in Qur'aan that" to every nation, every tribe, and every community he has sent a messenger to bring the righteousness back whenever the society went astray.
Then Qur'an, Al-Hujurat, Surah 49:13: "O mankind! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you, in sight of God, is the best in conduct. God Knows and is Aware of everything we do." Dharma operates when people conduct themselves well and treat others as they would want to be treated. That is when Satya (truth ) triumphs.
If you do not follow what Lord Krishna says or God says, the results are same - adharma prevails.
Qur'aan further adds that " it is your Karma that earns you a place in heaven, not necessarily your prayers and wealth. Prophet Muhammad told his own daughter that she will have to earn her place with her Karma and she ain't going to get a free pass because she is the daughter of the prophet. It is individual responsibility.
For the third time, I don't see the author's claim and connection in this verse "In the eye of Allah, these kafirs [Hindus] are no better than animals and hence He instructs the Muslims to mount any kind of torture and atrocities on them, kill them, burn them and their houses, take their women and children as captives and rape their women and so on."
Where did he cook this up from? And How many has he fed this? I wish he had made the effort to follow Bhagvad Gita "Finding the truth is one's own responsibility".
3:86 (Asad) How would God bestow His guidance upon people who have resolved to deny the truth after having attained to faith, and having borne witness that this Apostle is true, and [after] all evidence of the truth has come unto them? [69] For, God does not guide such evildoing folk.
[69] The people referred to are the Jews and the Christians. Their acceptance of the Bible, which predicts the coming of the Prophet Muhammad, has made them "witnesses" to the truth of his prophethood. See also verses 70 and 81 above. (Qur'aan Ref: 3:86 )
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Quoted as: "I will cast a dread into the hearts of the unbelievers" (8.12)
I will stop at this... I bet, there is a pattern of mis-information here. I call it mis-information because it incites hate among Hindus for Muslims. Right information like right karma would help one heal and create goodness.
If you want me to continue, I will. But I think this should be sufficient, I have responded to similar false claims umpteen times.
Pick up the Qur'aan translation by Mohammad Asad, or a few others and look directly into it. I did not write any of the above except my comments. It is all from the Qur'aan.
It is another story that the Europeans had paid to mistranslate the Qur'aan and even called it a Mohammadan Religion. Much of it is documented at the blog http://quraan-today.blogspot.com/
Mike Ghouse
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• "Therefore cut off their heads, and strike off all the ends of the fingers. This shall they suffer because they have opposed Allah and His Prophet, and whosoever shall oppose Allah and His Prophet, verily Allah will be severe in punishing them" (8.13)
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• "moreover, as for the non-believers, I will punish them with grievous punishments in this world, and in the world is to come" (3.56)
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• "they shall suffer a grievous punishment" (3.77).
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• "They (believers) shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain" (9:111)."
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Europeans have added verses in even Qoraan written in 8th Century?
ReplyDeleteCould you come up with something more believeable please?
And even if you insist you are right, how come we can not delete such verses out of Qoraan?
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If Europeans have mistranslated those verses, why the hell they mean the same for Arabs, who's Mother Tongue is Arabic?
Are Arabs translating them wrong also and you you, a Non Arab knows, more Arabic than them?
"When Are Muslims Required to Fight, And Against Whom?"
ReplyDeletehttp://muslimsforasafeamerica.org/?p=4
Kamran A. Memon Civil Rights Attorney Chicago, Illinois
Mike,
ReplyDeleteYou might want to peruse my comment (under assadiq) of today on the desicritics.org web-site. If you would like to you can reproduce it on your blog/website/ e mailings etc. For a change we agree! I hope things are going along fine with you.
Inayat Lalani
Dear Mike,
ReplyDeleteMostly irrational Muslims blame their problems on the West and the Jews. It is very easy to do so.
Besides the Europeans there are many Muslims, Shias and Sunnis who have translated the Qur'an.
I doubt Bin Laden, Mullah Omar or suicide bombers are reading European translations. I even doubt Maududi read European translation.
I doubt Saudis, Pakistani Madressas and Palestinians are teaching Qur'an to their children from European translations.
Qur'an has never taught violence. Misinterpretation of the Qur'an and ahadith to suit one's Agenda has been a long time habit of our Muslim brothers( to justify their anti-Islamic actions). If Islam has received a bad rap, it is thanks to these selfish Muslims.
Sooner we look in the mirror and face the person on the other side, the better. No need to blame others for the ugly mess we have ourselves created.
Mohgul
Brother Mike,
ReplyDeleteThe uniqueness and beauty of Qur'an is that you can interpret it anyway you like.Non-believers translate and distort it for evil design.True muslims translate it for betterment of humanity.
Before I put in my 2 cents worth as an ordinary muslim who is not well versed in Qur'an, I hesitate to participate in unnecessary debate which, in my opinion, would only incite and inflame by "evil" people because, it's been accepted by major religions of the world that Islam is a religion of peace.Therefore, it's just waste of time to get involved and debate on some verses of Qur'an which surely are misinterpreted by extremists and "evil" people.
Evidently, there seem to be clash of past and present;democracy and Islamic law (read news above: "govt. Pakistan agrees to impose Islamic law).It's only after Bin Laden and 9/11, Islam's holy book, Qur'an came under microscope which west and Islamist radicals have tried to distort some of Qur'anic verses.Actually, it's more political, not religious we see violence perpetrated by Islamic militants, either for independence or Islamic way of life.In other words, it's clash of democracy and Islamic law.But, majority of over billion muslims are peaceful and non-violent.
Hope therefore, I have spelled out in few words why it's waste of time to debate over holy book,Qur'an and its verses, which in my opinion, would incite and inflame more, not less non-believers who enjoy distorting religious scriptures for their own selfish motive.
Hasni Essa
Islam for Pluralism
Could you please direct me to an English interpretation of the Quran which you feel best represents it?
ReplyDeleteObviously MA Khan hasn't read the scriptures of other faiths with as much care or as critically as he has the Quran.
ReplyDeleteIt is true that the Quran does not categorically proscribe violence in the way, for instance, the Quakers who forswear violence unconditionally. However the Quran goes much further in limiting the scope of violence, the conditions for permissibility of violence and in mitigating the brutality of warfare than the scriptures of any other major religion bar none; specifically the Hebrew and Christian Bibles and Bhagwad Geeta.
Consider the exploits of Joshua, the conqueror of the 'Promised Land'(all ordained by God!) wherein, after promising safe conduct to the peaceful inhabitants of Ai if they submitted, he slew every man,woman and child, slaughtered everything that walketh or runneth, creepeth or crawleth and left not a blade of grass standing. So he added deception and duplicity to gratuitous bestiality. And today Joshua is the most favorite name of a newborn male child among Americans!
And the 'civilized' Western nations have raised the stakes of 'total war' to unimaginable heights where blowing up hundreds, maybe thousands, of civilians to smithereens with cluster bombs is OK (but beheading of one or a few individuals by the 'terrorists' is barbaric).
Nor is the Quranic injunction a pious and empty rhetoric; In the closing days of World War I, the retreating secular Turkish armies refused to resort to scorched earth policy so characteristic of the Western nations and would not poison the wells from which the advancing British hordes would derive their drinking water precisely because those tactics are un-Islamic! Likewise, no crops were burned or livestock slaughtered by them in order to deprive the enemy of their food. For that attitude, they earned derision from the British although the latter's Arab allies understood and nodded in agreement.
It is a sign of human progress, as assessed by God, that the Quran has sought to 'humanize' warfare. That does not mean we cannot go further and append a supplemental creed of total non-violence a la Quakers, to our respective scriptures. God would not frown upon man taking such liberties with his revelations, He would smile.
A few Muslim sects have done just that and have renounced violence in its totality.
MA Khan, read the Book of Judges, the Book of Esther and the Book of Revelation in the Old and New Testaments - to cite just a few examples - and you will be sold on the moderation of the Quran. BTW, by pointing these chapters out to you I am committing blasphemy in the eyes of devout Muslims
Dear Friends, Much has been stated on the subject. Inayat Sahib has adequately covered the ground. Where I want to emphasize is as to what Ruvy has cautioned. The language of Holy Torah is Hebrew and the language of Holy Quran is Arabic. That is the problem. It took 22 years and some months the entire Quran to be completed. One notices, certain questions for which God gives His verses. Till Prophet shifted from Mecca to Medina the muslims suffered without saying a word and it is only after reaching Medina Holy Prophet PBUH was asked to defend themselves.
ReplyDeleteWe are talking about India. India is a most fortunate country to have accepted first of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All landed on the Southern coast. The Bhakti Philosophy and the Sufi thoughts brought tremendous synergy and that is the India we are all proud of. We lived happily as good neighbours. Take Judaism, Holy Prophet Moses name appears 42 times in the Holy Quran. Such is the respect and place for this great Prophet of Islam. So also Jesus occuppies a central stage in the Holy Quran. Mother Mary's position too is supreme. Islam says that over 100000 prophets came to this world. Many Islamic Scholars believe that Lord Buddha, Lord Krishna may have been Prophets earlier. Dr Zakir Naik quotes from Vedas about the prophecy of the Coming of Prophet Muhammad,pbuh. What has now changed the mindset is the politics of conflict. Blood shed all over. Justification in killing .Human bombs a total taboo in Islam have become a part of revenge. These are difficult times and understanding alone could solve our differences. By calling names and pointing fingers nothing is going to change. I want to tell you a short story; in a musical concert in Delhi some years ago a Brahmin girl from Bengal announced that she was going to render a song "Allah Huu". Her rendering was not only very melodious but so effective that it brought tears to the audience in the hall mostly Hindus, and such is our country India and I belong to that country where every religion has survived and flourished, brought Harmony and every sphere of life was beatified in art, music, artitechture, food, calligraphy and host of beautiful things. My friends let us see beauty in all religions and live happily in this difficult world. Before I close, at least minimize the differences, I pray.
72 Comments in all at Desi Critics
ReplyDeletehttp://desicritics.org/2009/02/15/000156.php
What a laughable defence! Respond to what "Turk" said in his comment.
ReplyDeleteInayat Lalani, the problem of condoning violence, rape, slavery etc. is not at all unique to Islam among the Abrahamic religions.
The UNIQUE problem is the near-impossibility of reforming Islam due to it being prohibited in the Quran itself. The blind idolisation of Mohammed no matter how inhuman he appears through the most authentic hadiths (Bukhari, Muslim - these two are enough to prove this barabarism) doesn't help either.
Various sects of Muslims have been suffering almost as much due to their religion as non-muslims.
Look at the persecution of Shias and Sufis by Sunnis (Iraq under Saddam Hussein, now Shias are having their revenge; blowing up Sufi shrines in Pakistan; discrimination. Look at the state-sanctioned persecution against Ahmediyas in Pakistan.
This inherently intolerant, cultish nature of Islam doesn't even let Shia Islam (where ijtehad i.e. reasoning is allowed) be peaceful. Example : state-sanctioned persecution of the followers of Ba'hai faith in Iran.
Now someone might bring up the "Golden Age" Islam when the Ottoman empire was spread far and wide. What noone bothers to check is that the freedom was a farce. Like it is now in Saudi Arabia. Non-muslims were still dhimmis, second-class citizens, forced to pay jaziya tax, conversion from Islam to other religions very difficult, conversion to Islam very easy, etc.
Oh, and have you ever asked yourselves : why are ex-muslims so stridently critical of their former religion?
The fact is: Muslims need to introspect, look within. Big-time.
Oh and before anyone presumes I am one of the pro-VHP Hindu fanatics, let me inform you that I have been one of the most vocal critics of the 2002 Gujarat riots. So much so, that I've often had a fall-out with a few fellow Gujarati friends because they refused to condemn the massacre of Muslims in the riots.
ReplyDeleteI have a Muslim girlfriend. I don't and will never condone any violence towards innocents, whether Muslims or anyone else. I started reading the Quran and Hadiths to REFUTE the charge that Islam encourages violence and terrorism.
I am deeply saddened that I was the one refuted. Islam is anything but a religion of peace. Those muslims who are good human beings are either unaware of their religion (and I suspect this is true of many Muslims) or cherry-pick the peaceful verses and ignore/try to explain away the rest. They are restrained from criticising/calling for reforms in the Quran and Hadiths by the texts themselves. Those who do, for example Taslima Nasreen, face open death threats by the Ulema and Islamic political parties like MIM.
Something to chew upon : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_islam
ReplyDeleteNow you can argue that this applied in the times of Mohammed because of the possibility of treachery/treason, that it was a political thing.
Please explain why the sharia is still unamenable to reform. The answer is clear : the Quran and the Hadiths which explicitly forbid reforms as bid'ah (innovation), a major sin in Sunni Islam.